Windows??.....

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Windows??.....

Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.
Ok.....so I'm just gonna ask, because I've noticed something. There was
a time I could update my machine (Lenovo ThinkPad T-430 / T-420
laptops.) that wouldn't take long and I'd be able to continue to use my
machines for hours until I was ready to either reboot, shutdown, etc. Is
it me?...or has recently Fedora started to behave like Windows?....in
the fact that now when I do updates?....I HAVE to reboot my
machine!!!???? I thought the whole premise of moving away from having to
reboot for each and every update, patch, and fix was one of the major
reasons some people LEFT Windows to BEGIN WITH!? Is this going to be the
"norm"?.....is it because Microsoft has integrated themselves within the
Open Source community that now.....the community is starting to behave
like WINDOWS!?.....because if so?...I may have to start looking for
another distro. The days of me having to reboot just because the SYSTEM
wants me to?......SHOULD have ended with the cessation of my usage of
Microsoft Windows.


Here's Hoping.....





EGO II
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Re: Windows??.....

Ed Greshko
On 2019-12-09 12:31, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
> Ok.....so I'm just gonna ask, because I've noticed something. There was a time I could update my machine (Lenovo ThinkPad T-430 / T-420 laptops.) that wouldn't take long and I'd be able to continue to use my machines for hours until I was ready to either reboot, shutdown, etc. Is it me?...or has recently Fedora started to behave like Windows?....in the fact that now when I do updates?....I HAVE to reboot my machine!!!???? I thought the whole premise of moving away from having to reboot for each and every update, patch, and fix was one of the major reasons some people LEFT Windows to BEGIN WITH!? Is this going to be the "norm"?.....is it because Microsoft has integrated themselves within the Open Source community that now.....the community is starting to behave like WINDOWS!?.....because if so?...I may have to start looking for another distro. The days of me having to reboot just because the SYSTEM wants me to?......SHOULD have ended with the cessation of my usage of
> Microsoft Windows.

I assume GNOME is your desktop, yes?

Why not just update from the command line?  "dnf update".  Then you can decide if you'd like to reboot.


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Re: Windows??.....

Richard Schwalk
Hi, 

maybe you need a little bit longer explanation. 
If you updated the linux OS, you need restart to take effect (most of the times). If you update from the command line "dnf update" then Fedora not force you to restart, you can decide when you restart. Regarding my opinion this is the "correct" linux behavior, but you need to know, that some update (also security) will be not active (eg. kernel update) until you restart the OS.

The gnome-software application decided to take the approach to restart the computer, to ensure the update takes effect. I'm not entirely sure , but if it is no kernel-update then you will not be enforce to restart. 

But you can decide which approach to take. 

On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 13:08, Ed Greshko <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2019-12-09 12:31, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
Ok.....so I'm just gonna ask, because I've noticed something. There was a time I could update my machine (Lenovo ThinkPad T-430 / T-420 laptops.) that wouldn't take long and I'd be able to continue to use my machines for hours until I was ready to either reboot, shutdown, etc. Is it me?...or has recently Fedora started to behave like Windows?....in the fact that now when I do updates?....I HAVE to reboot my machine!!!???? I thought the whole premise of moving away from having to reboot for each and every update, patch, and fix was one of the major reasons some people LEFT Windows to BEGIN WITH!? Is this going to be the "norm"?.....is it because Microsoft has integrated themselves within the Open Source community that now.....the community is starting to behave like WINDOWS!?.....because if so?...I may have to start looking for another distro. The days of me having to reboot just because the SYSTEM wants me to?......SHOULD have ended with the cessation of my usage of Microsoft Windows.
I assume GNOME is your desktop, yes? Why not just update from the command line?  "dnf update".  Then you can decide if you'd like to reboot. -- The key to getting good answers is to ask good questions. _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- [hidden email] To unsubscribe send an email to [hidden email] Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@...

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Re: Windows??.....

Samuel Sieb
On 12/8/19 9:40 PM, Richard Schwalk wrote:
> The gnome-software application decided to take the approach to restart
> the computer, to ensure the update takes effect. I'm not entirely sure ,
> but if it is no kernel-update then you will not be enforce to restart.

You always have to reboot because the updates are done in a special boot
mode.  This is to avoid any conflicts with running services or replacing
files out from under running applications.

If you don't like that, then you can run "dnf upgrade" from the command
line and take responsibility for any issues that might cause.
Personally, I've rarely run into any issues, but after a major update I
usually reboot anyway to get the new kernel.  However, I'm quite happy
for the users I help to do it the reboot way with Gnome.
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Re: Windows??.....

George N. White III
In reply to this post by Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 00:32, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok.....so I'm just gonna ask, because I've noticed something. There was
a time I could update my machine (Lenovo ThinkPad T-430 / T-420
laptops.) that wouldn't take long and I'd be able to continue to use my
machines for hours until I was ready to either reboot, shutdown, etc. Is
it me?...or has recently Fedora started to behave like Windows?....in
the fact that now when I do updates?....I HAVE to reboot my
machine!!!???? I thought the whole premise of moving away from having to
reboot for each and every update, patch, and fix was one of the major
reasons some people LEFT Windows to BEGIN WITH!? Is this going to be the
"norm"?.....is it because Microsoft has integrated themselves within the
Open Source community that now.....the community is starting to behave
like WINDOWS!?.....because if so?...I may have to start looking for
another distro. The days of me having to reboot just because the SYSTEM
wants me to?......SHOULD have ended with the cessation of my usage of
Microsoft Windows.

Windows 10 often requires multiple reboots over several days.
Reboots are needed not only the bases system, but also for 3rd
party software. 

It is true that linux can continue to function without a reboot, but there
are security reasons for reboots:

1. some malware is not permanently installed -- a reboot kills it
2. there have been cases where libraries were updated for security
patches, but the host system was never rebooted so the "patched"
vulnerabilty was left open for an extended period resulting in system
compromise.  The time window between release of a patch and
mass deployment of exploits has been shrinking, so where you
could once get away with rebooting once a week, you now
need to reboot as soon as possible after updating.


Here's Hoping.....
 
Currently, a well-resourced effort can compromise almost any
target, and there are many groups exploiting easy targets.
Increasing automation is allowing more groups to exploit
harder targets, and day-0 exploits can be run against
large numbers of systems in a short period. 

As long as the payment industry allows serial credit card fraud,
criminals can avoid prosecution by operating from certain countries,
programmers fail to use good security practices, and IOT devices
are not getting security patches, more and more effort towards
keeping systems secure will be needed.  

--
George N. White III


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Re: Windows??.....

Patrick O'Callaghan-2
On Mon, 2019-12-09 at 08:53 -0400, George N. White III wrote:
> As long as the payment industry allows serial credit card fraud,
> criminals can avoid prosecution by operating from certain countries,
> programmers fail to use good security practices, and IOT devices
> are not getting security patches, more and more effort towards
> keeping systems secure will be needed.
>

That's not a reason to reboot because I updated Firefox (for example)
when I can just restart it. This all-or-nothing approach is one thing
that turns me off about Gnome.

poc
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Re: Windows??.....

Roberto Ragusa
On 12/9/19 2:06 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> On Mon, 2019-12-09 at 08:53 -0400, George N. White III wrote:
>> As long as the payment industry allows serial credit card fraud,
>> criminals can avoid prosecution by operating from certain countries,
>> programmers fail to use good security practices, and IOT devices
>> are not getting security patches, more and more effort towards
>> keeping systems secure will be needed.
>>
>
> That's not a reason to reboot because I updated Firefox (for example)
> when I can just restart it. This all-or-nothing approach is one thing
> that turns me off about Gnome.

There is a friendly command to tell you:

# needs-restarting

(in dnf-utils)

--
    Roberto Ragusa    mail at robertoragusa.it
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Re: Windows??.....

John Mellor
In reply to this post by Ed Greshko

On 2019-12-09 12:08 a.m., Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 2019-12-09 12:31, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
>> Ok.....so I'm just gonna ask, because I've noticed something. There was a time I could update my machine (Lenovo ThinkPad T-430 / T-420 laptops.) that wouldn't take long and I'd be able to continue to use my machines for hours until I was ready to either reboot, shutdown, etc. Is it me?...or has recently Fedora started to behave like Windows?....in the fact that now when I do updates?....I HAVE to reboot my machine!!!???? I thought the whole premise of moving away from having to reboot for each and every update, patch, and fix was one of the major reasons some people LEFT Windows to BEGIN WITH!? Is this going to be the "norm"?.....is it because Microsoft has integrated themselves within the Open Source community that now.....the community is starting to behave like WINDOWS!?.....because if so?...I may have to start looking for another distro. The days of me having to reboot just because the SYSTEM wants me to?......SHOULD have ended with the cessation of my usage of
>> Microsoft Windows.
> I assume GNOME is your desktop, yes?
>
> Why not just update from the command line?  "dnf update".  Then you can decide if you'd like to reboot.

Eddie, I agree fully.  99% of the updates do not require a reboot.  The
only exception that I can think of is a breaking API change, and those
should not exist in a given release.  Indeed, Ubuntu explicitly
guarantees that a breaking change will not happen until the next
release, and they use a backport repo section in order to stop breaking
changes from happening.

I have had a Firefox issue after update twice in the past, and I assume
that would be because Mozilla broke their API between versions, but
that's about it.  However, most packages follow semantic versioning
rules, and a breaking API change always requires a major version number
shift.  Its almost trivial for the updater to check for a major version
shift in a package that is running, and flag that a reboot is required
only in that situation.  And even then, unless its the kernel, it should
require a user logout/login instead of a reboot.

The bogus Gnome requirement to reboot is IMHO based upon faulty
thinking, and needs to be corrected.


--

John Mellor, Build/Release Engineer
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Re: Windows??.....

Temlakos
On 12/9/19 8:49 AM, John Mellor wrote:

On 2019-12-09 12:08 a.m., Ed Greshko wrote:
On 2019-12-09 12:31, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
Ok.....so I'm just gonna ask, because I've noticed something. There was a time I could update my machine (Lenovo ThinkPad T-430 / T-420 laptops.) that wouldn't take long and I'd be able to continue to use my machines for hours until I was ready to either reboot, shutdown, etc. Is it me?...or has recently Fedora started to behave like Windows?....in the fact that now when I do updates?....I HAVE to reboot my machine!!!???? I thought the whole premise of moving away from having to reboot for each and every update, patch, and fix was one of the major reasons some people LEFT Windows to BEGIN WITH!? Is this going to be the "norm"?.....is it because Microsoft has integrated themselves within the Open Source community that now.....the community is starting to behave like WINDOWS!?.....because if so?...I may have to start looking for another distro. The days of me having to reboot just because the SYSTEM wants me to?......SHOULD have ended with the cessation of my usage of
Microsoft Windows.
I assume GNOME is your desktop, yes?

Why not just update from the command line?  "dnf update".  Then you can decide if you'd like to reboot.

Eddie, I agree fully.  99% of the updates do not require a reboot.  The only exception that I can think of is a breaking API change, and those should not exist in a given release.  Indeed, Ubuntu explicitly guarantees that a breaking change will not happen until the next release, and they use a backport repo section in order to stop breaking changes from happening.

I have had a Firefox issue after update twice in the past, and I assume that would be because Mozilla broke their API between versions, but that's about it.  However, most packages follow semantic versioning rules, and a breaking API change always requires a major version number shift.  Its almost trivial for the updater to check for a major version shift in a package that is running, and flag that a reboot is required only in that situation.  And even then, unless its the kernel, it should require a user logout/login instead of a reboot.

The bogus Gnome requirement to reboot is IMHO based upon faulty thinking, and needs to be corrected.


--

John Mellor, Build/Release Engineer

KDE does not impose any reboot requirements. My problem has always been not getting any good advice on when a reboot is required. One thing I always reboot for, is a kernel update. Especially if I am having issues with the current kernel (taking too long to load a Web page after clicking on a link in an e-mail client, for example). But for anything else, I'm just guessing.

I'm likely going to be passing

$ sudo dnf needs-restarting

more often for awhile, just to see what turns up.

Temlakos


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Re: Windows??.....

Ed Greshko
In reply to this post by Roberto Ragusa
On 2019-12-09 21:44, Roberto Ragusa wrote:

> On 12/9/19 2:06 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> On Mon, 2019-12-09 at 08:53 -0400, George N. White III wrote:
>>> As long as the payment industry allows serial credit card fraud,
>>> criminals can avoid prosecution by operating from certain countries,
>>> programmers fail to use good security practices, and IOT devices
>>> are not getting security patches, more and more effort towards
>>> keeping systems secure will be needed.
>>>
>>
>> That's not a reason to reboot because I updated Firefox (for example)
>> when I can just restart it. This all-or-nothing approach is one thing
>> that turns me off about Gnome.
>
> There is a friendly command to tell you:
>
> # needs-restarting
>

The other option is "tracer".

DESCRIPTION
       Tracer determines which applications use outdated files and prints them.
       For special kind of applications such as services or  daemons,  it  sug‐
       gests  a  standard command to restart it. Detecting whether file is out‐
       dated or not is based on a simple idea. If  application  has  loaded  in
       memory  any  version  of a file which is provided by any package updated
       since system was booted up, tracer consider  this  application  as  out‐
       dated.


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Re: Windows??.....

Robert Moskowitz
In reply to this post by Ed Greshko


On 12/9/19 12:08 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 2019-12-09 12:31, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
>> Ok.....so I'm just gonna ask, because I've noticed something. There was a time I could update my machine (Lenovo ThinkPad T-430 / T-420 laptops.) that wouldn't take long and I'd be able to continue to use my machines for hours until I was ready to either reboot, shutdown, etc. Is it me?...or has recently Fedora started to behave like Windows?....in the fact that now when I do updates?....I HAVE to reboot my machine!!!???? I thought the whole premise of moving away from having to reboot for each and every update, patch, and fix was one of the major reasons some people LEFT Windows to BEGIN WITH!? Is this going to be the "norm"?.....is it because Microsoft has integrated themselves within the Open Source community that now.....the community is starting to behave like WINDOWS!?.....because if so?...I may have to start looking for another distro. The days of me having to reboot just because the SYSTEM wants me to?......SHOULD have ended with the cessation of my usage of
>> Microsoft Windows.
> I assume GNOME is your desktop, yes?
>
> Why not just update from the command line?  "dnf update".  Then you can decide if you'd like to reboot.

And use 'Tracer' to see what was impacted and what you should restart
(sometimes just an app, or logout/in, or reboot).

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Re: Windows??.....

Patrick O'Callaghan-2
In reply to this post by Roberto Ragusa
On Mon, 2019-12-09 at 14:44 +0100, Roberto Ragusa wrote:

> On 12/9/19 2:06 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Mon, 2019-12-09 at 08:53 -0400, George N. White III wrote:
> > > As long as the payment industry allows serial credit card fraud,
> > > criminals can avoid prosecution by operating from certain countries,
> > > programmers fail to use good security practices, and IOT devices
> > > are not getting security patches, more and more effort towards
> > > keeping systems secure will be needed.
> > >
> >
> > That's not a reason to reboot because I updated Firefox (for example)
> > when I can just restart it. This all-or-nothing approach is one thing
> > that turns me off about Gnome.
>
> There is a friendly command to tell you:
>
> # needs-restarting

Yes, I know. I use it (I actually use the dnf tracer module which does
the same thing). I'm talking about the default software updater in
Gnome, not the command-line alternative. 'needs-restarting' is useless
if you use the Gnome GUI as it (apparently) will always restart anyway.

poc
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Re: Windows??.....

Robert Moskowitz


On 12/9/19 11:30 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> On Mon, 2019-12-09 at 14:44 +0100, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
>> On 12/9/19 2:06 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2019-12-09 at 08:53 -0400, George N. White III wrote:
>>>> As long as the payment industry allows serial credit card fraud,
>>>> criminals can avoid prosecution by operating from certain countries,
>>>> programmers fail to use good security practices, and IOT devices
>>>> are not getting security patches, more and more effort towards
>>>> keeping systems secure will be needed.
>>>>
>>> That's not a reason to reboot because I updated Firefox (for example)
>>> when I can just restart it. This all-or-nothing approach is one thing
>>> that turns me off about Gnome.
>> There is a friendly command to tell you:
>>
>> # needs-restarting
> Yes, I know. I use it (I actually use the dnf tracer module which does
> the same thing). I'm talking about the default software updater in
> Gnome, not the command-line alternative. 'needs-restarting' is useless
> if you use the Gnome GUI as it (apparently) will always restart anyway.

FWIW, I left Gnome long ago for Xfce; Gnome was just too much of a
resource hog.  But then I don't use Xfce's dnfupdater and always use
command line.

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