Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

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Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
I took the following quote from from the recent thread "Fedora 25 not
booting after update" - didn't want to hijack that thread and therefore
started this new one:

On Tue, 2017-09-05 at 01:56 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:

[ ... ]

> I use Gnome and I still do my updates directly online with dnf.  It's
> your choice how you do them.

Ditto here: Gnome here (plus KDE installed, but rarely used) and I also
update via dnf only, i.e. I log out of Gnome, log in to a tty, run
"dnf upgrade", and reboot - did you, or anyone else, find a way to
upgrade safely without the need to reboot? On Gnome?

More info, and what got me to upgrade always with a reboot following:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@....
org/thread/7ULAG243UNGTOSL6URGNG23GC4B6X5GB/

I'm relatively new to Fedora, and I'm astonished we seem to be on Linux
in a situation now that I had on MS Windows.
In previous times, on a Debian system, I rebooted the machine maybe once
or twice a year (not kidding ..) and it worked - provided I didn't mess
up dependencies with the package manager (I *did* mess it up .. :) .. )

TIA
Wolfgang
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 14:16 +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
>  did you, or anyone else, find a way to
> upgrade safely without the need to reboot? On Gnome?
>

Please note: I'm not talking about a full version upgrade from let's say
F25 to F26 - just about the usual upgrades inside a single Fedora
version ..
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Jon Ingason
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Pfeiffer
Den 2017-09-07 kl. 14:16, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:

> I took the following quote from from the recent thread "Fedora 25 not
> booting after update" - didn't want to hijack that thread and therefore
> started this new one:
>
> On Tue, 2017-09-05 at 01:56 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>> I use Gnome and I still do my updates directly online with dnf.  It's
>> your choice how you do them.
>
> Ditto here: Gnome here (plus KDE installed, but rarely used) and I also
> update via dnf only, i.e. I log out of Gnome, log in to a tty, run
> "dnf upgrade", and reboot - did you, or anyone else, find a way to
> upgrade safely without the need to reboot? On Gnome?

You only need to reboot if the kernel is updated.


> Please note: I'm not talking about a full version upgrade from let's say
> F25 to F26 - just about the usual upgrades inside a single Fedora
> version ..

OK, then you need to reboot. See following link to learn to do system
upgrade:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DNF_system_upgrade

>
> TIA
> Wolfgang



--
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Jon Ingason
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 14:52 +0200, Jon Ingason wrote:
> Den 2017-09-07 kl. 14:16, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:



> > Please note: I'm not talking about a full version upgrade from let's
> > say
> > F25 to F26 - just about the usual upgrades inside a single Fedora
> > version ..
>
> OK, then you need to reboot. See following link to learn to do system
> upgrade:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DNF_system_upgrade

No: that's about a complete system upgrade from one Fedora version to
another. It's clear one has to reboot for that.

But I'm trying to avoid reboots after package updates in one single
Fedora version, the ones that are showering in every few hours ....

And I'm talking about this, from Adam Williamson, a Fedora guy:

"The 'STANDARD FEDORA SOLUTION' for Workstation is offline updates with
GNOME Software."
... which I understand as a need to reboot even after simple package
updates.

Link again:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@.../thread/7ULAG243UNGTOSL6URGNG23GC4B6X5GB/

Or here, again Adam Williamson:
"The safest possible way to update a Fedora system is to use the
‘offline updates’ mechanism. If you use GNOME, this is how updates work
if you just wait for the notifications to appear, the ones that tell
you you can reboot to install updates now."

https://www.happyassassin.net/2016/10/04/x-crash-during-fedora-update-when-system-has-hybrid-graphics-and-systemd-udev-is-in-update/

See? "The safest possible way to update a Fedora system is to use the
‘offline updates’ mechanism."

That's why I started the thread. Again: I use dnf, not the GNOME update
mechanism, but from how I understand A. Williamsen, this might also
apply to package updates via dnf and the reboot following on that ...

TIA
Wofgang

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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Jon Ingason
Den 2017-09-07 kl. 15:32, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:

> On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 14:52 +0200, Jon Ingason wrote:
>> Den 2017-09-07 kl. 14:16, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
>
>
>
>>> Please note: I'm not talking about a full version upgrade from let's
>>> say
>>> F25 to F26 - just about the usual upgrades inside a single Fedora
>>> version ..
>>
>> OK, then you need to reboot. See following link to learn to do system
>> upgrade:
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DNF_system_upgrade
>
> No: that's about a complete system upgrade from one Fedora version to
> another. It's clear one has to reboot for that.

Sorry Wolfgang, I mist the "not" :-(

But you can ignore the Gnome update and use dnf instead regularly and
exclude the kernel update if you don't want to reboot.

The kernel updated more rapidly in Fedora than in Debian so you are
bound to update the kernel more often and reboot tog get the latest
security update of the kernel.

>
> But I'm trying to avoid reboots after package updates in one single
> Fedora version, the ones that are showering in every few hours ....
>
> And I'm talking about this, from Adam Williamson, a Fedora guy:
>
> "The 'STANDARD FEDORA SOLUTION' for Workstation is offline updates with
> GNOME Software."
> ... which I understand as a need to reboot even after simple package
> updates.
>
> Link again:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@.../thread/7ULAG243UNGTOSL6URGNG23GC4B6X5GB/
>
> Or here, again Adam Williamson:
> "The safest possible way to update a Fedora system is to use the
> ‘offline updates’ mechanism. If you use GNOME, this is how updates work
> if you just wait for the notifications to appear, the ones that tell
> you you can reboot to install updates now."
>
> https://www.happyassassin.net/2016/10/04/x-crash-during-fedora-update-when-system-has-hybrid-graphics-and-systemd-udev-is-in-update/
>
> See? "The safest possible way to update a Fedora system is to use the
> ‘offline updates’ mechanism."
>
> That's why I started the thread. Again: I use dnf, not the GNOME update
> mechanism, but from how I understand A. Williamsen, this might also
> apply to package updates via dnf and the reboot following on that ...
>
> TIA
> Wofgang
>


--
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Jon Ingason
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Ed Greshko
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Pfeiffer
On 09/07/2017 09:32 PM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> See? "The safest possible way to update a Fedora system is to use the
> ‘offline updates’ mechanism."
>
> That's why I started the thread. Again: I use dnf, not the GNOME update
> mechanism, but from how I understand A. Williamsen, this might also
> apply to package updates via dnf and the reboot following on that ...


Yes, that is the "safest" path.

The best thing to do after an update via dnf is to run "dnf needs-restarting".  This
will give you a list of processes that could potentially be impacted by the last
update by, for example, some libraries being updated.

Depending on what you find, you may just need to logout/login to restart the
processes.  Or, you may need to restart some daemon using "systemctl restart whatever".

There is no definitive answer to the question.  I've the habit of not rebooting or
logging out.  Most of the time to no ill effect.  Other times, after a while, I may
find some odd behaviors.  So, I'll logout/login and if all is OK, continue.  If the
oddities continue, I'll reboot.

I've never run into a situation where a corruption occurred causing a permanent
damage to my system.

--
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 21:53 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:

> On 09/07/2017 09:32 PM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> > See? "The safest possible way to update a Fedora system is to use
> > the
> > ‘offline updates’ mechanism."
> >
> > That's why I started the thread. Again: I use dnf, not the GNOME
> > update
> > mechanism, but from how I understand A. Williamsen, this might also
> > apply to package updates via dnf and the reboot following on that
> > ...
>
>
> Yes, that is the "safest" path.
>
> The best thing to do after an update via dnf is to run "dnf needs-
> restarting".

Wow, that looks like a really powerful tool: I didn't even know about
it. Thanks a lot for letting me know: might save me quite some time ...

I really will need to have a look at the rest of the installed
dnf.plugin.* tools ...

> This will give you a list of processes that could potentially be
> impacted by the last update by, for example, some libraries being
> updated.
>
> Depending on what you find, you may just need to logout/login to
> restart the
> processes.  Or, you may need to restart some daemon using "systemctl
> restart whatever".
>
> There is no definitive answer to the question.

That's actually what I was thinking, too. But I simply don't know too
much about Fedora so far to be sure about it ...

> I've the habit of not rebooting or logging out.  Most of the time to
> no ill effect.  Other times, after a while, I may find some odd
> behaviors.  So, I'll logout/login and if all is OK, continue.  If the
> oddities continue, I'll reboot.

Makes sense, yes ...

>
> I've never run into a situation where a corruption occurred causing a
> permanent damage to my system.

Sounds good ... :)
As I said: For an update I - meantime - always try to log out of the X
environment and then start the upgrade process on a VT - I think this is
a good idea.

Again: thanks again for mentioning the "needs-restarting" plugin  ...

Regards
Wolfgang

>
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
In reply to this post by Jon Ingason
On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 15:48 +0200, Jon Ingason wrote:

> Den 2017-09-07 kl. 15:32, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
> > On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 14:52 +0200, Jon Ingason wrote:
> > > Den 2017-09-07 kl. 14:16, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Please note: I'm not talking about a full version upgrade from
> > > > let's
> > > > say
> > > > F25 to F26 - just about the usual upgrades inside a single
> > > > Fedora
> > > > version ..
> > >
> > > OK, then you need to reboot. See following link to learn to do
> > > system
> > > upgrade:
> > >
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DNF_system_upgrade
> >
> > No: that's about a complete system upgrade from one Fedora version
> > to
> > another. It's clear one has to reboot for that.
>
> Sorry Wolfgang, I mist the "not" :-(

Not a problem at all ... :)

Thanks, and Regards
Wolfgang



>
>
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Matthew Miller-2
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Pfeiffer
On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 02:16:23PM +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> Ditto here: Gnome here (plus KDE installed, but rarely used) and I also
> update via dnf only, i.e. I log out of Gnome, log in to a tty, run
> "dnf upgrade", and reboot - did you, or anyone else, find a way to
> upgrade safely without the need to reboot? On Gnome?

You can certainly do this. I highly recommend using tmux or screen,
because that will shield you from some of the potential problems in
case an update of the running GUI breaks that GUI.

Additionally, do be aware of issues like
https://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=308371, which is
caused by upgrading firefox when firefox is running. (The flash problem
is just a very visible symptom.)

Note also that in the event of security problems, you may still have
stuff running with the old versions in memory. Run `sudo dnf
needs-restarting` to see what needs to restart; often a reboot is just
_easier_.


--
Matthew Miller
<[hidden email]>
Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Patrick O'Callaghan-2
In reply to this post by Ed Greshko
On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 21:53 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> The best thing to do after an update via dnf is to run "dnf needs-restarting".  This
> will give you a list of processes that could potentially be impacted by the last
> update by, for example, some libraries being updated.

AFAIK this has now been deprecated in favour of 'tracer' (standalone
command). Also the dnf.plugin.tracer plugin.

poc
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Matthew Miller-2
On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 04:46:26PM +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > The best thing to do after an update via dnf is to run "dnf needs-restarting".  This
> > will give you a list of processes that could potentially be impacted by the last
> > update by, for example, some libraries being updated.
> AFAIK this has now been deprecated in favour of 'tracer' (standalone
> command). Also the dnf.plugin.tracer plugin.

I ran with dnf.plugin.tracer installed for a bit, but ultimately
disabled it because it's rather slow. I'd rather reboot. :)

--
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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
In reply to this post by Matthew Miller-2
On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 11:00 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> [ ... ]
> Note also that in the event of security problems, you may still have
> stuff running with the old versions in memory. Run `sudo dnf
> needs-restarting` to see what needs to restart; often a reboot is just
> _easier_.

Easier, yes, and probably simply the only option in instances where
services needing a restart simply cannot be restarted after an upgrade,
except by a full reboot.

That's what just happened here, an hour ago:

I did an upgrade on a tmux session, on a tty - quite a few packages got
upgraded, glibc among them. After the upgrade, and after restarting gdm,
(something like  systemctl restart gdm, IIRC), after re-logged in to
Gnome still I got this from
dnf needs-restarting:

=================================
1 : /usr/lib/systemd/systemd --system --deserialize 17
3720 : /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-udevd
3916 : /sbin/auditd
3946 : /usr/libexec/accounts-daemon
3957 : /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-logind
3958 : /usr/sbin/abrtd -d -s
3972 : /usr/sbin/gssproxy -D
3999 : /usr/bin/python3 -Es /usr/sbin/firewalld --nofork --nopid
4010 : /usr/lib/polkit-1/polkitd --no-debug
4030 : /usr/sbin/NetworkManager --no-daemon
4047 : /usr/sbin/libvirtd
4227 : /usr/libexec/bluetooth/bluetoothd
4295 : /usr/sbin/dnsmasq --conf-file=/var/lib/libvirt/dnsmasq/default.conf --leasefile-ro --dhcp-script=/usr/libexec/libvirt_leaseshelper
4375 : /usr/bin/abrt-dump-journal-xorg -fxtD
4376 : /usr/bin/abrt-dump-journal-oops -fxtD
4377 : /usr/bin/abrt-dump-journal-core -D -T -f -e
4411 : /usr/libexec/upowerd
4447 : /usr/bin/pulseaudio --start --log-target=syslog
4495 : /usr/libexec/packagekitd
4578 : /usr/libexec/colord
5084 : /usr/libexec/udisks2/udisksd
5436 : /usr/sbin/cupsd -l
5650 : /usr/libexec/fwupd/fwupd
7493 : /sbin/agetty --noclear tty3 linux
18667 : /usr/sbin/crond -n
19027 : /usr/bin/python3 -Es /usr/sbin/setroubleshootd -f  
27522 : /sbin/agetty --noclear tty5 linux
27538 : /sbin/agetty --noclear tty6 linux
==================================================

Please note systemd-udevd, 3720, on top of the list: seems to be the
kernel device manager, so I think it was good reason for a reboot,
because how do you restart a "static" service like systemd-udevd?

After a full reboot then, 'dnf needs-restarting' now yields nothing.

I can't say I'm happy with this situation, but at least - I think - I
now know how to handle it.

Thanks a lot to everyone in this thread: you definitely helped a lot!

Best Regards
Wolfgang
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Joe Zeff-2
On 09/07/2017 03:39 PM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> After a full reboot then, 'dnf needs-restarting' now yields nothing.

Of course it does.  running dnf needs-restarting gives you a list of
programs that either have been updated more recently than their last
start or are using shared resources that have just been upgraded.  As a
reboot closes and restarts *everything,* what else would you expect?
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Patrick O'Callaghan-2
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Pfeiffer
On Fri, 2017-09-08 at 00:39 +0200, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> I did an upgrade on a tmux session, on a tty - quite a few packages got
> upgraded, glibc among them.

Updating glibc means you need to reboot anyway. Essentially everything
depends on it.

poc
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Ed Greshko
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan-2
On 09/07/2017 11:46 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 21:53 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> The best thing to do after an update via dnf is to run "dnf needs-restarting".  This
>> will give you a list of processes that could potentially be impacted by the last
>> update by, for example, some libraries being updated.
> AFAIK this has now been deprecated in favour of 'tracer' (standalone
> command). Also the dnf.plugin.tracer plugin.
>

I rarely use needs-restarting.  On the issue of tracer I actually tried it and hate
it more than needs-restarting.

As Matthew pointed out, needs-restarting is rather slow.  But, at least you can elect
to run it.  With the tracer plugin it runs after every successful dnf run and it is
no faster than needs-restarting.  Additionally, I found it interfered with the akmod
process update of nVidia drivers when the kernel was updated.


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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
In reply to this post by Joe Zeff-2
On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 15:47 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 09/07/2017 03:39 PM, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:
> > After a full reboot then, 'dnf needs-restarting' now yields nothing.
>
> Of course it does.  running dnf needs-restarting gives you a list of
> programs that either have been updated more recently than their last
> start or are using shared resources that have just been upgraded.  As
> a
> reboot closes and restarts *everything,* what else would you expect?

Just what I got: but on computers (as with men in general ..:)) I'm
always ready for a surprise .... I just reported the result to let youknow it worked ...

Wolfgang
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Patrick O'Callaghan-2
In reply to this post by Ed Greshko
On Fri, 2017-09-08 at 07:14 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:

> On 09/07/2017 11:46 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Thu, 2017-09-07 at 21:53 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > > The best thing to do after an update via dnf is to run "dnf needs-restarting".  This
> > > will give you a list of processes that could potentially be impacted by the last
> > > update by, for example, some libraries being updated.
> >
> > AFAIK this has now been deprecated in favour of 'tracer' (standalone
> > command). Also the dnf.plugin.tracer plugin.
> >
>
> I rarely use needs-restarting.  On the issue of tracer I actually tried it and hate
> it more than needs-restarting.
>
> As Matthew pointed out, needs-restarting is rather slow.  But, at least you can elect
> to run it.  With the tracer plugin it runs after every successful dnf run and it is
> no faster than needs-restarting.  Additionally, I found it interfered with the akmod
> process update of nVidia drivers when the kernel was updated.

True that it's no faster, but it does have options that can give more
information and hints about what to do. Not in all cases though. It
will often say "restart foo manually" and you have to investigate how
to do that because it doesn't know, which can be a challenge when foo
is some daemon you aren't familiar with and was originally started at
boot time.

poc
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Andrew Toskin
In reply to this post by Jon Ingason
> Den 2017-09-07 kl. 14:16, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
> You only need to reboot if the kernel is updated.

Supposedly there are ways to get around this even this, but I can't find a way to make it work.

kSplice smoothly switches the running system to the new kernel, but Oracle acquired the project and made it proprietary, so the only way to use it is with an enterprise subscription.

Red Hat then announced a free/gratis and open source alternative called kpatch. You could try it, but as of today, it's still not considered stable enough for production use -- https://github.com/dynup/kpatch

Then apparently Red Hat and openSUSE merged parts of both of their competing implementations into the kernel itself? -- http://www.zdnet.com/article/no-reboot-patching-comes-to-linux-4-0/ -- But I can't find anything about how to *use* this feature.
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Rick Stevens-4
On 09/07/2017 05:20 PM, Andrew Toskin wrote:

>> Den 2017-09-07 kl. 14:16, skrev Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
>> You only need to reboot if the kernel is updated.
>
> Supposedly there are ways to get around this even this, but I can't find a way to make it work.
>
> kSplice smoothly switches the running system to the new kernel, but Oracle acquired the project and made it proprietary, so the only way to use it is with an enterprise subscription.
>
> Red Hat then announced a free/gratis and open source alternative called kpatch. You could try it, but as of today, it's still not considered stable enough for production use -- https://github.com/dynup/kpatch
>
> Then apparently Red Hat and openSUSE merged parts of both of their competing implementations into the kernel itself? -- http://www.zdnet.com/article/no-reboot-patching-comes-to-linux-4-0/ -- But I can't find anything about how to *use* this feature.

I'd be very suspicious of trying to use a new kernel without actually
_booting_ the new kernel. There were abortive attempts to partially
restart the kernel with the Mach kernel. It sorta worked...in fairly
rare occurrences...but never reliably and often ended with the system
crashing in fairly ugly ways. Both Apple, Carnegie-Melon and DEC gave
it the old college try.

My basic rules of thumb is...if the kernel was updated, reboot. If glibc
was updated, you could restart your apps but it's safest to reboot.

I mean, do you do an engine swap on your car when you're tooling along
at 80MPH? I sure don't!
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Re: Possible to "dnf upgrade" in a Fedora Gnome without the need to reboot?

Wolfgang Pfeiffer
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan-2
On Fri, 2017-09-08 at 01:16 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-09-08 at 07:14 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > I rarely use needs-restarting.  On the issue of tracer I actually
> > tried it and hate
> > it more than needs-restarting.
> >
> > As Matthew pointed out, needs-restarting is rather slow.  But, at
> > least you can elect
> > to run it.  With the tracer plugin it runs after every successful
> > dnf run and it is
> > no faster than needs-restarting.  Additionally, I found it
> > interfered with the akmod
> > process update of nVidia drivers when the kernel was updated.
>
> True that it's no faster, but it does have options that can give more
> information and hints about what to do. Not in all cases though. It
> will often say "restart foo manually" and you have to investigate how
> to do that because it doesn't know, which can be a challenge when foo
> is some daemon you aren't familiar with and was originally started at
> boot time.

Exactly: It can be difficult to see which services need to be restarted,
and how they need to be restarted properly (order of restarting might
even be relevant) ...

I'm  more and more wondering why Fedora users after an upgrade are
supposed to test by **themselves** via the various plugins whether there
are services that need to be restarted in the running system, or
whether there is even a full reboot needed.

That whole testing of services and whether their restart/reload is
needed, then actually restarting them is something the dnf installer
might be able to do by itself: Inform the user - maybe at the end of or
during an upgrade - which services need a restart: dnf: "Shall we
restart foo now: Yes or No, and if No: here's how you can do it manually
...."
Or if a reboot is required: tell the users ... That whole procedure
looks actually like a no-brainer  ...

What did I miss? ...

Wolfgang



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