Fedora 26

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Fedora 26

Thomas Dineen
Gentle People:

   I hate to interrupt your Fedora 26 party, but well here goes a dose of reality from the
USER's PROSPECTIVE!

1) First of all F26's performance is very poor. its a CPU hog and DRAM ! I installed F26 in a Virtual Box (VBox)
on a two processor machine and it is so slow that it is barely usable. In the same environment CentOS performs
with quite excellent performance. You have a massive performance problem here!

2) Your new menu system is a joke. I use the system for application code development so I want Text Editor
windows and shells. Why did you hide these in the basement and the very bottom of the menu system?
Also your menus are slow and cumbersome. What was wrong with the previous menu system? Is this simply
change for the sake of change? Have your group been taken over by Marketing?

3) Look and feel. Why in the name of hell did you want this look and feel? I use Linux for application code
development. I want Text Editors, shell Windows, gcc, gdb , and ddd. Why are all the engineering tools hidden?
If I wanted the look and feel of Windows I would buy windows!

4) Text Editor: Go back to the old one it works way better!

5)  Your new Services configuration is a blithering disaster! Please bring back the configuration GUIs for
Services and Users. Keep in mind here I am not a Linux System administrator! I am a user! I perform
a complex configuration of user and group numbers to maintain NFS compatibility with Solaris.
This configuration is difficult even with the GUIs, without them forget it.

6) Cut and paste: I don't know what you did to that! (Well it use to work)! P.S. Solaris has a great User I/F
GUI for cut and paste.

6) Yum and rpm: Please print to the screen the directories where S/W is installed. So that I don't have to
waste time going looking for it.

7) Convenience: STOP CHANGING THE CONFIGURATION INTERFACES. Every time you change the configuration
methodology we the users have to waste hours and even days learning the new configuration methodology.

8) Are you on drugs? What in the hell gave you the insane idea that a command line interface for configuration
was some how better that a GUI?

    Please consider carefully the possibility that you are going in the wrong direction!
 
    Overall I continue to be disappointed in Fedora and thank heavens for CentOS.

Thomas Dineen




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Re: Fedora 26

ergodic
Amen!
Let me further add that neither Fedora 26 Live or Fedora 26 XFCE work.
I had to install Fedora 25 and then upgrade with dnf to Fedora 26.
Nautilus has become so limited that I switched to nemo.
It is a shame!


Gentle People:

   I hate to interrupt your Fedora 26 party, but well here goes a dose of reality from the
USER's PROSPECTIVE!

1) First of all F26's performance is very poor. its a CPU hog and DRAM ! I installed F26 in a Virtual Box (VBox)
on a two processor machine and it is so slow that it is barely usable. In the same environment CentOS performs
with quite excellent performance. You have a massive performance problem here!

2) Your new menu system is a joke. I use the system for application code development so I want Text Editor
windows and shells. Why did you hide these in the basement and the very bottom of the menu system?
Also your menus are slow and cumbersome. What was wrong with the previous menu system? Is this simply
change for the sake of change? Have your group been taken over by Marketing?

3) Look and feel. Why in the name of hell did you want this look and feel? I use Linux for application code
development. I want Text Editors, shell Windows, gcc, gdb , and ddd. Why are all the engineering tools hidden?
If I wanted the look and feel of Windows I would buy windows!

4) Text Editor: Go back to the old one it works way better!

5)  Your new Services configuration is a blithering disaster! Please bring back the configuration GUIs for
Services and Users. Keep in mind here I am not a Linux System administrator! I am a user! I perform
a complex configuration of user and group numbers to maintain NFS compatibility with Solaris.
This configuration is difficult even with the GUIs, without them forget it.

6) Cut and paste: I don't know what you did to that! (Well it use to work)! P.S. Solaris has a great User I/F
GUI for cut and paste.

6) Yum and rpm: Please print to the screen the directories where S/W is installed. So that I don't have to
waste time going looking for it.

7) Convenience: STOP CHANGING THE CONFIGURATION INTERFACES. Every time you change the configuration
methodology we the users have to waste hours and even days learning the new configuration methodology.

8) Are you on drugs? What in the hell gave you the insane idea that a command line interface for configuration
was some how better that a GUI?

    Please consider carefully the possibility that you are going in the wrong direction!
 
    Overall I continue to be disappointed in Fedora and thank heavens for CentOS.

Thomas Dineen




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Re: Fedora 26

Robert Moskowitz
I have to get a new 500GB SSD card before installing on my old system, so it will be a few more weeks.

I am assuming the OP is using GNOME.  The Gnome g-ds are independent of Fedora and Centos.  I dropped Nautilus for Nemo back in Fedora 21.  I dropped Gnome for Xfce with F22.  What a difference on battery consumption.  My CPUs stay at reasonable levels.

So don't complain so much to Fedora.  They, like all others have to live with what Gnome spits out.  And Gnome's goal is to mirror the Windows experience.  If you don't like Windows (which I hate), GET OFF GNOME!  End stop.

BTW, RHEL/Centos 8 will suffer the same fate with Gnome.  Gnome is what it is.

As far as problems installing F26 Xfce, I will find out about that in a couple weeks.  I will note that when I installed F24 Xfce, I ended up with Cinnamon!  I had to install Xfce on top of that and then select Xfce at login,  Once selected, I was on Xfce all the time.  I filed a bug report on this, but I never tested F25 to see if they fixed the Xfce install...

On 08/09/2017 12:41 PM, ergodic wrote:
Amen!
Let me further add that neither Fedora 26 Live or Fedora 26 XFCE work.
I had to install Fedora 25 and then upgrade with dnf to Fedora 26.
Nautilus has become so limited that I switched to nemo.
It is a shame!


Gentle People:

   I hate to interrupt your Fedora 26 party, but well here goes a dose of reality from the
USER's PROSPECTIVE!

1) First of all F26's performance is very poor. its a CPU hog and DRAM ! I installed F26 in a Virtual Box (VBox)
on a two processor machine and it is so slow that it is barely usable. In the same environment CentOS performs
with quite excellent performance. You have a massive performance problem here!

2) Your new menu system is a joke. I use the system for application code development so I want Text Editor
windows and shells. Why did you hide these in the basement and the very bottom of the menu system?
Also your menus are slow and cumbersome. What was wrong with the previous menu system? Is this simply
change for the sake of change? Have your group been taken over by Marketing?

3) Look and feel. Why in the name of hell did you want this look and feel? I use Linux for application code
development. I want Text Editors, shell Windows, gcc, gdb , and ddd. Why are all the engineering tools hidden?
If I wanted the look and feel of Windows I would buy windows!

4) Text Editor: Go back to the old one it works way better!

5)  Your new Services configuration is a blithering disaster! Please bring back the configuration GUIs for
Services and Users. Keep in mind here I am not a Linux System administrator! I am a user! I perform
a complex configuration of user and group numbers to maintain NFS compatibility with Solaris.
This configuration is difficult even with the GUIs, without them forget it.

6) Cut and paste: I don't know what you did to that! (Well it use to work)! P.S. Solaris has a great User I/F
GUI for cut and paste.

6) Yum and rpm: Please print to the screen the directories where S/W is installed. So that I don't have to
waste time going looking for it.

7) Convenience: STOP CHANGING THE CONFIGURATION INTERFACES. Every time you change the configuration
methodology we the users have to waste hours and even days learning the new configuration methodology.

8) Are you on drugs? What in the hell gave you the insane idea that a command line interface for configuration
was some how better that a GUI?

    Please consider carefully the possibility that you are going in the wrong direction!
 
    Overall I continue to be disappointed in Fedora and thank heavens for CentOS.

Thomas Dineen




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Re: Fedora 26 - Alternate User Perspective

Craig Lanning-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Dineen
On Wed, 2017-08-09 at 08:52 -0700, Thomas Dineen wrote:
> Gentle People:
>
>    I hate to interrupt your Fedora 26 party, but well here goes a
> dose of reality from the
> USER's PROSPECTIVE!

Yours is not *the* user's perspective. Yours is *a* user's perspective.
 Here is *my* user's perspective.

> 1) First of all F26's performance is very poor. its a CPU hog and
> DRAM ! I installed F26 in a Virtual Box (VBox)
> on a two processor machine and it is so slow that it is barely
> usable. In the same environment CentOS performs
> with quite excellent performance. You have a massive performance
> problem here!

I have F26 installed on the metal and don't see any performance issues.
 I have it running on a dual core 4GB laptop.

> 2) Your new menu system is a joke. I use the system for application
> code development so I want Text Editor
> windows and shells. Why did you hide these in the basement and the
> very bottom of the menu system?
> Also your menus are slow and cumbersome. What was wrong with the
> previous menu system? Is this simply
> change for the sake of change? Have your group been taken over by
> Marketing?

I have not noticed any kind of new menu system.  I, too, use Linux for
application development.  I continue to find all of the tools at the
same location in the menus.  The ones I really use a lot, I put in the
Favorites that show up when you bump the upper left corner.

> 3) Look and feel. Why in the name of hell did you want this look and
> feel? I use Linux for application code
> development. I want Text Editors, shell Windows, gcc, gdb , and ddd.
> Why are all the engineering tools hidden?
> If I wanted the look and feel of Windows I would buy windows!

If you are using GNOME, it has historically had a slightly Windows-ish
kind of feel.

The only change in look and feel that I have noticed is the new
background image.  Each version of Fedora as a new default background
image.  The default F26 background image is not to my liking, so I just
go pick another one.


> 4) Text Editor: Go back to the old one it works way better!

If you are using Linux for application development, I am surprised that
you are using any kind of default text editor.  Most developers will
use VI, some variation of EMACS, or one of the IDE's with its own built
in editor.  Personally, I use XEmacs.

> 5)  Your new Services configuration is a blithering disaster! Please
> bring back the configuration GUIs for
> Services and Users.

You can install system-config-users and system-config-services.

>  Keep in mind here I am not a Linux System administrator! I am a
> user! I perform
> a complex configuration of user and group numbers to maintain NFS
> compatibility with Solaris.

If the Solaris systems are using Sun's NIS, you should be able to link
your Linux system in to use the same system and not have to manually
configure all of the user and group ID's.

> This configuration is difficult even with the GUIs, without them
> forget it.

I know that at one time there was the beginning of a GUI for
interacting with the systemd stuff.  It needed some work, but never
seemed to get any better. Now it seems to be gone completely.

> 6) Cut and paste: I don't know what you did to that! (Well it use to
> work)! P.S. Solaris has a great User I/F
> GUI for cut and paste.

Haven't noticed any problems with Cut and Paste.

> 6) Yum and rpm: Please print to the screen the directories where S/W
> is installed. So that I don't have to
> waste time going looking for it.
>
> 7) Convenience: STOP CHANGING THE CONFIGURATION INTERFACES. Every
> time you change the configuration
> methodology we the users have to waste hours and even days learning
> the new configuration methodology.
>
> 8) Are you on drugs? What in the hell gave you the insane idea that a
> command line interface for configuration
> was some how better that a GUI?

Actually, the CLI for configuration allows for scripting it.  Since
your configuration is so complex, you might look into using scripts to
help you with your configuration.

>     Please consider carefully the possibility that you are going in
> the wrong direction!
>  
>     Overall I continue to be disappointed in Fedora and thank heavens
> for CentOS.

Remember that from the beginning, it was stated that Fedora was the
development ground for things that would eventually be part of Red Hat
Enterprise Linux.  If you want a stable version of Linux then either
buy RHEL or use CentOS.  Fedora is known to be unstable and rapidly
changing.

If you are so keen on Solaris, you might look into getting Open Solaris
for your machine.

About the only problem I have run into with F26 is that the screensaver
activates when it shouldn't.  It's like the timer for the screensaver
is not being reset when a key is pressed or the mouse is moved.

And if the screensaver is active, pressing a key will not deactivate
it.  Only moving the mouse will deactivate it.

These are not show stoppers, they are just irritating.

Craig Lanning
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Re: Fedora 26

Rick Stevens-4
In reply to this post by ergodic
On 08/09/2017 09:41 AM, ergodic wrote:
> Amen!
> Let me further add that neither Fedora 26 Live or Fedora 26 XFCE work.
> I had to install Fedora 25 and then upgrade with dnf to Fedora 26.
> Nautilus has become so limited that I switched to nemo.

Then you didn't do it correctly. F26 Xfce Live 64-bit works fine. I've
installed at least 15 systems using it from bare-metal systems to VMs of
several types, including the one I'm writing this on.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Gentle People:
>
>        I hate to interrupt your Fedora 26 party, but well here goes a
>     dose of reality from the
>     USER's PROSPECTIVE!
>
>     1) First of all F26's performance is very poor. its a CPU hog and
>     DRAM ! I installed F26 in a Virtual Box (VBox)
>     on a two processor machine and it is so slow that it is barely
>     usable. In the _same environment_ CentOS performs
>     with quite excellent performance. You have a massive performance
>     problem here!

I don't think so. I use F26 and the Xfce desktop to develop a hell of a
lot of code--from kernel drivers to "Hello, world!" apps--and I haven't
seen performance or memory issues. I've even got F26 running in four
qemu-kvm (libvirt) instances on an F26 host with 8 cores and they're
just fine.

The Gnome desktop IS a massive resource hog and has been since Gnome 4
came out, but that's ONE desktop environment--not Fedora 26 in general.
Gnome 4 tries to emulate a tablet from what I can see, and no one in
their right mind tries to develop software on a tablet. Try a different
desktop environment.

>     2) Your new menu system is a joke. I use the system for application
>     code development so I want Text Editor
>     windows and shells. Why did you hide these in the basement and the
>     very bottom of the menu system?
>     Also your menus are slow and cumbersome. What was wrong with the
>     previous menu system? Is this simply
>     change for the sake of change? Have your group been taken over by
>     Marketing?

On what desktop? Gnome? Xfce? KDE? Mate? LXQT? LXDE? Cinnamon?

Heavy software developers fall in to a very limited use case. One has
to customize one's menus to get the system the way one wants it (hell,
that's what "customize" means). I have no issues with the Xfce desktop
after some tweaks. In the same vein, the various IDEs I have to use
(Eclipse, Bluefish, Zend, NetBeans, Komodo) all have strengths and
weaknesses and I've yet to find a single one that's ideal for EVERYTHING
I do, but that's just the way I work and I recognize that.

>     3) Look and feel. Why in the name of hell did you want this look and
>     feel? I use Linux for application code
>     development. I want Text Editors, shell Windows, gcc, gdb , and ddd.
>     Why are all the engineering tools hidden?
>     If I wanted the look and feel of Windows I would buy windows!

Again, customize your system! Most users WANT a system like what the
default is. 90% of the stuff you want would end up in Xfce's
"Development" menu by default (I use Xfce, so that's what I'm most
familiar with). Then, if you don't like the layout, tweak it to your
desires (and note that I said "your desires"--the way you work is
not necessarily the way I want to work).

>     4) Text Editor: Go back to the old one it works way better!

Absolutely useless comment. Which text editor? Vi/vim? EMACS? Gedit?

>     5)  Your new Services configuration is a blithering disaster! Please
>     bring back the configuration GUIs for
>     Services and Users. Keep in mind here I am not a Linux System
>     administrator! I am a user! I perform
>     a complex configuration of user and group numbers to maintain NFS
>     compatibility with Solaris.
>     This configuration is difficult even with the GUIs, without them
>     forget it.

Now THAT'S ridiculous. Again, which configuration GUIs? For what
services?

NFS compatibility with Solaris? Based on NFSv3 or NFSv4? Are you using
LDAP or Kerberos or Windows Domains or what for authentication? Do all
the systems use the same mechanism? Is that all set up correctly? Oh,
wait, you're not a system administrator. I forgot. (yes, that's sarcasm)

>     6) Cut and paste: I don't know what you did to that! (Well it use to
>     work)! P.S. Solaris has a great User I/F
>     GUI for cut and paste.

Then use Solaris. The cut and paste for Fedora that I use works just
peachy (Xfce, middle mouse button for paste, works fine). I haven't used
Solaris for a long time, but it sure-as-hell had a lot of issues when I
was stuck with it.

>     6) Yum and rpm: Please print to the screen the directories where S/W
>     is installed. So that I don't have to
>     waste time going looking for it.

First, that's two item 6s in your list. Second, rpm has a perfectly easy
way to see where things from an RPM are installed:

        rpm -ql name-of-installed-rpm

e.g.

        [root@golem4 tmp]# rpm -ql gcc
        /usr/bin/c89
        /usr/bin/c99
        /usr/bin/cc
        /usr/bin/gcc
        /usr/bin/gcc-ar
        /usr/bin/gcc-nm
        /usr/bin/gcc-ranlib
        /usr/bin/gcov
        /usr/bin/gcov-tool
        /usr/bin/x86_64-redhat-linux-gcc
        /usr/bin/x86_64-redhat-linux-gcc-7
        /usr/lib/gcc
        ...

And why do you really care where they're installed? You can always use
"which" to find out what the path of an executable is. Your beloved
CentOS (or even Solaris) doesn't spit this info out by default.

>     7) Convenience: STOP CHANGING THE CONFIGURATION INTERFACES. Every
>     time you change the configuration
>     methodology we the users have to waste hours and even days learning
>     the new configuration methodology.

If you want consistency for a long period, stay with CentOS. Fedora is
the cutting edge of Red Hat development and things will change much more
often on Fedora (there's a new release every 6 months). Eventually, a
given release of Fedora gets frozen and BECOMES the next Red Hat release
(and therefore the next CentOS).

Thus, CentOS has a much longer life cycle than Fedora so if you want
stability, use CentOS. Evenually, it'll get updated too, and you'll have
to start your whining all over again because CentOS 8 is so much
different than CentOS 7 was.

>     8) Are you on drugs? What in the hell gave you the insane idea that
>     a command line interface for configuration
>     was some how better that a GUI?

Seriously? There are things in configuration files you will NEVER see in
a GUI and it's almost impossible to take into account EVERY possibility.
The ancient and crusty "system-config-whatever" GUIs had all kinds of
issues and often produced invalid config files.

>         Please consider carefully the possibility that you are going in
>     the wrong direction!
>      
>         Overall I continue to be disappointed in Fedora and thank
>     heavens for CentOS.

As I said above, CentOS is BASED on Fedora. Your beloved CentOS 7 is
based on Fedora 18 (I think). The development has to be done SOMEWHERE
and Fedora is that "somewhere". There are parts of the system I detest
and think were horrible decisions, but I have to live with them.

If you want something with a long life cycle, use CentOS but be aware
that some of the cutting edge stuff in Fedora may not make it back to
the current release of CentOS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital    [hidden email] -
- AIM/Skype: therps2        ICQ: 226437340           Yahoo: origrps2 -
-                                                                    -
-           "I understand Windows 2000 has a Y2K problem."           -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Fedora 26

Richard Hughes-6
In reply to this post by Thomas Dineen
On 9 August 2017 at 16:52, Thomas Dineen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 8) Are you on drugs? ... Please consider carefully the possibility that you are going in the
> wrong direction!

I suggest you go back to where you purchased the software and ask for
a full refund. Seriously, file a decent bug report and we can work on
the bugs, but rants like this on a users mailing list are going to
achieve nothing.

Richard.
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Re: Fedora 26

Michael Schwendt
In reply to this post by Thomas Dineen
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 08:52:59 -0700, Thomas Dineen wrote:

> Gentle People:
  ^^^^^^
That doesn't match the tone you've used in some of your rants.

> I want Text Editors, shell Windows, gcc, gdb , and ddd.

> 6) Yum and rpm: Please print to the screen the directories where S/W is
> installed. So that I don't have to
> waste time going looking for it.

You want shell windows, so use "rpm -ql PACKAGENAME". It's the
same for CentOS, and there is a similar command for Yum. Just look
"man rpm", "man yum" or "man dnf".
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Re: Fedora 26 - Alternate User Perspective

Robert Moskowitz
In reply to this post by Craig Lanning-2


On 08/09/2017 01:48 PM, Craig Lanning wrote:

> On Wed, 2017-08-09 at 08:52 -0700, Thomas Dineen wrote:
>> Gentle People:
>>
>>     I hate to interrupt your Fedora 26 party, but well here goes a
>> dose of reality from the
>> USER's PROSPECTIVE!
> Yours is not *the* user's perspective. Yours is *a* user's perspective.
>   Here is *my* user's perspective.
>
>
>
>> 4) Text Editor: Go back to the old one it works way better!
> If you are using Linux for application development, I am surprised that
> you are using any kind of default text editor.  Most developers will
> use VI, some variation of EMACS, or one of the IDE's with its own built
> in editor.  Personally, I use XEmacs.

Geany...

:)

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