Biting the bullet?

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Biting the bullet?

Rolf Turner

I have finally reached a stage where I may have to bite the bullet,
grasp the nettle, screw my courage to the sticking place .... and
upgrade my Fedora version.

I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian. But
everything I have seen on this list with respect to upgrading terrifies
me.  Disasters seem to lurk everywhere and I haven't the skills to cope
with disasters.  Nor do I have access to any support in respect of Fedora.

So, if you will bear with me, I'd like to start off with a preliminary
question:

The seeming necessity for upgrading arises from a pressing need to
upgrade "R" to version 3.2.0.  When I try to build this version I get a
load of error messages (basically coming from gcc I think) like unto:

> connections.o: In function `gzcon_write':
> /home/rolf/Desktop/Rinst/R-3.2.0/src/main/connections.c:5469: undefined reference to `deflate'


There were also complaints about undefined references to inflate, crc32,
deflateEnd, inflateEnd, inflateReset, inflateInit2_, deflateInit2_,
compress, uncompress, and zlibVersion, many of which were issued
repeatedly.  It finally gave up, saying:

> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status

People from the R-help mailing list said that the problem lies in some
"compression related" libs --- zlib, bzlib, liblzma.

I tried installing zlib and zlib-devel (using yum install) and was told
in both cases that my system was up-to-date.  I tried installing bzlib
and was told there was nothing by that name.  I then installed lzma and
lzma-devel (*that* seemed to work) but it didn't help.  Same undefined
references problems as before.

It was also suggested that I try building R-patched.  So I tried; no
help there either.

So: Can anyone suggest what I can or should do to overcome this problem
*without* having to upgrade?

Given that the answer to my preliminary question is "No", can anyone be
so kind as to provide me with a *recipe* for upgrading, expressed in
simple-minded terms that I can understand?  Something of the form:

(1) First, do this.

(2) Second, do something else.

(3) Third .....

You get the idea.  I'm afraid vague generalities would be of no help to
me, since I am a bear of very little brain and long words bother me.

(I know that step (0) is to make a backup of all my user files.  Which I
know how to do and will do.)

A specific question, I guess, is:  Do I use yum for such an upgrade?
(And if so, what is the syntax?) Or do I use fedup?  (And likewise, what
is the syntax?)

If no-one wants to write out a set of instructions for me (and
admittedly I can see that they may well not want to) can someone point
me at such a set of instructions somewhere on the web?  Again, they
would have to be expressed in a very simple-minded way.  ("Upgrading
Fedora for Dummies".)

Everlastingly grateful for any help that anyone can extend.

cheers,

Rolf Turner

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Re: Biting the bullet?

M. Fioretti-2
On 2015-05-11 06:08, Rolf Turner wrote:
> I have finally reached a stage where I may have to bite the bullet,
> grasp the nettle, screw my courage to the sticking place .... and
> upgrade my Fedora version.
> I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian.

Hi Rolf, and all. Your email really begs a general question:

WHY upgrade, in a situation like yours? Does it really make sense?

Why not backup everything,
then completely ERASE the old installation, installing over it
the current version from SCRATCH, then configure it to work as you need?

Seriously. Wouldn't it be a much more reliable path, and consume much
less
time in the end?

I'm interested in everybody's thoughts on this, not just Rolf's.

Thanks,
Marco

http://mfioretti.com
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Re: Biting the bullet?

Ralf Corsepius
On 05/11/2015 08:45 AM, M. Fioretti wrote:

> On 2015-05-11 06:08, Rolf Turner wrote:
>> I have finally reached a stage where I may have to bite the bullet,
>> grasp the nettle, screw my courage to the sticking place .... and
>> upgrade my Fedora version.
>> I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian.
>
> Hi Rolf, and all. Your email really begs a general question:
>
> WHY upgrade, in a situation like yours? Does it really make sense?
>
> Why not backup everything,
> then completely ERASE the old installation, installing over it
> the current version from SCRATCH, then configure it to work as you need?
>
> Seriously. Wouldn't it be a much more reliable path, and consume much less
> time in the end?
I don't think, these questions can be answered in "broad generality".

The decision on whether to upgrade or to reinstall depends on various
factors, esp. on a system's configurations, customizations and the
installer's technical skills. Both approaches have pros and cons, there
is no "black and white".

In simple, mostly non-customized (single-user desktop) installations
re-installing often is easy. To "new-comers" and less Linux-skilled
people it often is "much simpler"

In complex (multi-user, networked, "enterprize") installations,
upgrading often is easier, because recreating/restoring your
configuations can easily take a lot of time.

That said, I personally almost always upgrade and rarely "re-install".

Ralf

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Roger
In reply to this post by M. Fioretti-2
On 11/05/15 16:45, M. Fioretti wrote:

> On 2015-05-11 06:08, Rolf Turner wrote:
>> I have finally reached a stage where I may have to bite the bullet,
>> grasp the nettle, screw my courage to the sticking place .... and
>> upgrade my Fedora version.
>> I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian.
>
> Hi Rolf, and all. Your email really begs a general question:
>
> WHY upgrade, in a situation like yours? Does it really make sense?
>
> Why not backup everything,
> then completely ERASE the old installation, installing over it
> the current version from SCRATCH, then configure it to work as you need?
>
> Seriously. Wouldn't it be a much more reliable path, and consume much
> less
> time in the end?
>
> I'm interested in everybody's thoughts on this, not just Rolf's.
>
> Thanks,
> Marco
>
> http://mfioretti.com
I generally do not upgrade but install new.
I run 2 partitions on my hd, one has the previous version and the other
the new install.
I then install latest versions of the apps I need then copy my working
files over to  the new install.
This way I have the backup for a few months, then overwrite that with
the next fresh install.
It's worked that way for a few years now.
Roger

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Re: Biting the bullet?

M. Fioretti-2
In reply to this post by Ralf Corsepius
On 2015-05-11 09:04, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 05/11/2015 08:45 AM, M. Fioretti wrote:
>> ...
>> Seriously. Wouldn't it be a much more reliable path, and consume much
>> less
>> time in the end?
> I don't think, these questions can be answered in "broad generality".

Indeed. That's why I said "in a situation like yours (Rolf)"

Maybe what makes the difference here is not so much whether the
computer is a single-user desktop, or an enterprise server. It is
whether it
is only ONE version behind, or more.

Personally, I believe (and already saw another subscriber saying similar
things in this thread) that going from F17 to F21, or to RHEL 2 to
whatever is current these days, is likely to be MUCH quicker and less
painful in one "brutal" step, (i.e. just reinstall from scratch, then
reconfigure) than by several upgrades, no matter what the role and
usage of the computer are.

Because doing upgrades FROM F17 TODAY means doing stuff that almost
nobody who may help you still remembers, or can check first hand
anymore,
etc... you're alone, really.

Whereas installing F21 from scratch and then asking "what else should I
do to make F21 do X?" (or asking right before installing to be prepared,
of course) will get much more current, useable answers, won't it?

But again, of course, there no single answer, and I remain interested
in hearing everybody's thoughts and best practices about this.

Marco




> The decision on whether to upgrade or to reinstall depends on various
> factors, esp. on a system's configurations, customizations and the
> installer's technical skills. Both approaches have pros and cons,
> there is no "black and white".
>
> In simple, mostly non-customized (single-user desktop) installations
> re-installing often is easy. To "new-comers" and less Linux-skilled
> people it often is "much simpler"
>
> In complex (multi-user, networked, "enterprize") installations,
> upgrading often is easier, because recreating/restoring your
> configuations can easily take a lot of time.
>
> That said, I personally almost always upgrade and rarely "re-install".
>
> Ralf

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Patrick O'Callaghan-2
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
On Mon, 2015-05-11 at 16:08 +1200, Rolf Turner wrote:
> I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian.
> But everything I have seen on this list with respect to upgrading
> terrifies me.  Disasters seem to lurk everywhere and I haven't the
> skills to cope with disasters.  Nor do I have access to any support in
> respect of Fedora.

Not to be snarky, but if upgrading terrifies you then perhaps Fedora is
not the right distro for your needs. Regular updating is part of the
Fedora mindset. The system is designed to be updated at least once a
year. You should be wary of the consequences of *not* updating,
especially in regard to security.

Having said that, note that the reports of disasters are in a sense
self-selecting. People complain when they have problems, but mostly keep
quiet when they don't (there are exceptions of course). Personally I've
not had any significant issues updating Fedora, which I do literally on
a daily basis for patches, and within a week or two of each new release
coming out.

poc

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Timothy Murphy-5
In reply to this post by M. Fioretti-2
M. Fioretti wrote:

> Why not backup everything,
> then completely ERASE the old installation, installing over it
> the current version from SCRATCH, then configure it to work as you need?
>
> Seriously. Wouldn't it be a much more reliable path, and consume much
> less
> time in the end?

Briefly, No.

Surely we all have enough space on our disks nowadays
to create a new partition, and install the new version there?
This gives you a safety net, as you can go back to the old version,
if things don't work out.
Also, you can copy /etc/hosts and similar (with some care)
from the old version.

I did this recently, with an ancient computer (Thinkpad T43),
which I'd left in another house for a couple of years,
and which was running an old version of Fedora, I think Fedora-16.
I was quite surprised it still seems to work fine -
the internal speaker is much louder than any of its successors,
so it's better for listening to the news, etc.


--
Timothy Murphy  
gayleard /at/ eircom.net
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin


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Re: Biting the bullet?

suvayu ali
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 04:08:23PM +1200, Rolf Turner wrote:

>
> The seeming necessity for upgrading arises from a pressing need to upgrade
> "R" to version 3.2.0.  When I try to build this version I get a load of
> error messages (basically coming from gcc I think) like unto:
>
> >connections.o: In function `gzcon_write':
> >/home/rolf/Desktop/Rinst/R-3.2.0/src/main/connections.c:5469: undefined reference to `deflate'
>
>
> There were also complaints about undefined references to inflate, crc32,
> deflateEnd, inflateEnd, inflateReset, inflateInit2_, deflateInit2_,
> compress, uncompress, and zlibVersion, many of which were issued repeatedly.
> It finally gave up, saying:
>
> >collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
>
> People from the R-help mailing list said that the problem lies in some
> "compression related" libs --- zlib, bzlib, liblzma.
>
> I tried installing zlib and zlib-devel (using yum install) and was told in
> both cases that my system was up-to-date.  I tried installing bzlib and was
> told there was nothing by that name.  I then installed lzma and lzma-devel
> (*that* seemed to work) but it didn't help.  Same undefined references
> problems as before.
>
> It was also suggested that I try building R-patched.  So I tried; no help
> there either.
>
> So: Can anyone suggest what I can or should do to overcome this problem
> *without* having to upgrade?

Regarding building R from source; since Fedora already ships R, and you
are just compiling a newer version yourself, I would use the standard
Fedora spec file and patches with your tarball and put it on copr[1].
Then all the building dependency/hassle is taken care of.  All you need
to do is update the tarball from time to time.

If this does not suit you, you can always install all required deps with
`yum-builddep R'.  This however might not be enough since your Fedora is
2 yrs old, and R might have picked up new dependencies.

Hope this helps,


Footnotes:

[1] https://copr-fe.cloud.fedoraproject.org/coprs/

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Re: Biting the bullet?

M. Fioretti-2
In reply to this post by Timothy Murphy-5
On 2015-05-11 12:43, Timothy Murphy wrote:

> M. Fioretti wrote:
>
>> Why not backup everything,
>> then completely ERASE the old installation, installing over it
>> the current version from SCRATCH, then configure it to work as you
>> need?
>>
>> Seriously. Wouldn't it be a much more reliable path, and consume much
>> less time in the end?
>
> Briefly, No.

Hi Timothy,

By what you write later, I don't think a full "no" is correct. Your
solution,
which I approve and sometimes do myself, is perfectly compatible with
mine,
if not the same thing in practice.

What I REALLY wanted to say in my first email (and yes, I should have
said it
better!) is that upgrades can be much more painful and slow than
installing
from scratch and re-configuring the resulting new environment.
Regardless of
whether the new install is done on the same disk/partition as the old
one
(i.e actually erasing it, as I wrote) or on another one.

But of course in both cases, even if I didn't write it explicitly, it
would
be stupid not to copy/reuse as-is, whenever possible, the configuration
files
from the old installation.

Marco

> Surely we all have enough space on our disks nowadays
> to create a new partition, and install the new version there?
> This gives you a safety net, as you can go back to the old version,
> if things don't work out.
> Also, you can copy /etc/hosts and similar (with some care)
> from the old version.
>
> I did this recently, with an ancient computer (Thinkpad T43),
> which I'd left in another house for a couple of years,
> and which was running an old version of Fedora, I think Fedora-16.
> I was quite surprised it still seems to work fine -
> the internal speaker is much louder than any of its successors,
> so it's better for listening to the news, etc.
>
>
> --
> Timothy Murphy
> gayleard /at/ eircom.net
> School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin

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Re: Biting the bullet?

oop12000
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
Would it be possible to build a static "R" binary on a more recent Fedora distribution then use binary the binary on your Fedora 17 machine(s)?



On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Rolf Turner <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have finally reached a stage where I may have to bite the bullet, grasp the nettle, screw my courage to the sticking place .... and upgrade my Fedora version.

I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian. But everything I have seen on this list with respect to upgrading terrifies me.  Disasters seem to lurk everywhere and I haven't the skills to cope with disasters.  Nor do I have access to any support in respect of Fedora.

So, if you will bear with me, I'd like to start off with a preliminary question:

The seeming necessity for upgrading arises from a pressing need to upgrade "R" to version 3.2.0.  When I try to build this version I get a load of error messages (basically coming from gcc I think) like unto:

connections.o: In function `gzcon_write':
/home/rolf/Desktop/Rinst/R-3.2.0/src/main/connections.c:5469: undefined reference to `deflate'


There were also complaints about undefined references to inflate, crc32, deflateEnd, inflateEnd, inflateReset, inflateInit2_, deflateInit2_, compress, uncompress, and zlibVersion, many of which were issued repeatedly.  It finally gave up, saying:

collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status

People from the R-help mailing list said that the problem lies in some "compression related" libs --- zlib, bzlib, liblzma.

I tried installing zlib and zlib-devel (using yum install) and was told in both cases that my system was up-to-date.  I tried installing bzlib and was told there was nothing by that name.  I then installed lzma and lzma-devel (*that* seemed to work) but it didn't help.  Same undefined references problems as before.

It was also suggested that I try building R-patched.  So I tried; no help there either.

So: Can anyone suggest what I can or should do to overcome this problem *without* having to upgrade?

Given that the answer to my preliminary question is "No", can anyone be so kind as to provide me with a *recipe* for upgrading, expressed in simple-minded terms that I can understand?  Something of the form:

(1) First, do this.

(2) Second, do something else.

(3) Third .....

You get the idea.  I'm afraid vague generalities would be of no help to me, since I am a bear of very little brain and long words bother me.

(I know that step (0) is to make a backup of all my user files.  Which I know how to do and will do.)

A specific question, I guess, is:  Do I use yum for such an upgrade?
(And if so, what is the syntax?) Or do I use fedup?  (And likewise, what is the syntax?)

If no-one wants to write out a set of instructions for me (and admittedly I can see that they may well not want to) can someone point me at such a set of instructions somewhere on the web?  Again, they would have to be expressed in a very simple-minded way.  ("Upgrading Fedora for Dummies".)

Everlastingly grateful for any help that anyone can extend.

cheers,

Rolf Turner

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Department of Statistics
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Re: Biting the bullet?

Heinz Diehl
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
On 11.05.2015, Rolf Turner wrote:

> The seeming necessity for upgrading arises from a pressing need to upgrade
> "R" to version 3.2.0.  When I try to build this version I get a load of
> error messages (basically coming from gcc I think) like unto:
>
> >connections.o: In function `gzcon_write':
> >/home/rolf/Desktop/Rinst/R-3.2.0/src/main/connections.c:5469: undefined reference to `deflate'

I'm using R a lot for my work.

Install bzip2 and bzip2-libs. Then, the libs must be compiled after the object
files. Or better, use this one:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=634621

Fedora is generally very slow to update R..

I'm on (nearly) bog standard F21, and it compiles cleanly:

R version 3.2.0 (2015-04-16) -- "Full of Ingredients"
Copyright (C) 2015 The R Foundation for Statistical Computing
Platform: x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu (64-bit)

R is free software and comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
You are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions.
Type 'license()' or 'licence()' for distribution details.

  Natural language support but running in an English locale

R is a collaborative project with many contributors.
Type 'contributors()' for more information and
'citation()' on how to cite R or R packages in publications.

Type 'demo()' for some demos, 'help()' for on-line help, or
'help.start()' for an HTML browser interface to help.
Type 'q()' to quit R.

[Workspace loaded from ~/.RData]

> Given that the answer to my preliminary question is "No", can anyone be so
> kind as to provide me with a *recipe* for upgrading, expressed in
> simple-minded terms that I can understand?  Something of the form:
>
> (1) First, do this.
>
> (2) Second, do something else.
>
> (3) Third .....

1. Download the .src.rpm from the site shown above.
2. Unpack it (rpm -i)
3. Run "rpmbuild -bb R.spec
4. Install/update the respective files
5. Done

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Heinz Diehl
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
On 11.05.2015, Rolf Turner wrote:

> I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian. But
> everything I have seen on this list with respect to upgrading terrifies me.
> Disasters seem to lurk everywhere and I haven't the skills to cope with
> disasters.

Fedora upgrade mostly works fine upgrading one or two versions. But upgrading
from F17 to 21? Do yourself a favour and install from scratch. It will save you
a lot of hassle.

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Matthew Miller-2
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 04:08:23PM +1200, Rolf Turner wrote:
> I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian.
> But everything I have seen on this list with respect to upgrading
> terrifies me.  Disasters seem to lurk everywhere and I haven't the
> skills to cope with disasters.  Nor do I have access to any support
> in respect of Fedora.

Disasters are the rare, rare exception, not the norm. You're just more
likely to hear about them, because when things go right, people are
less likely to be asking for help with that.

That said, the least-risky way is to back up all of your important data
and configurations and do a fresh install. That avoids all of the
weirdness that sometimes happens when trying to transform an old system
into a current one.

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Matthew Miller-2
In reply to this post by Rolf Turner
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 04:08:23PM +1200, Rolf Turner wrote:
> Given that the answer to my preliminary question is "No", can anyone
> be so kind as to provide me with a *recipe* for upgrading, expressed
> in simple-minded terms that I can understand?  Something of the
> form:

This document exists at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp


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Re: Biting the bullet?

Tethys
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan-2
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not to be snarky, but if upgrading terrifies you then perhaps Fedora is
> not the right distro for your needs. Regular updating is part of the
> Fedora mindset. The system is designed to be updated at least once a
> year.

The problem is that newer versions tend to break everything, which
makes for a sucky end user experience. I've been doing this since Red
Hat 3.0.3 and up, so it's not as if this is all new to me. While there
has been the odd release with problems over the years, it's largely
been a trouble free existence. But that has definitely changed in the
last few years. I'm wary of upgrading now, because too much breaks,
and no one cares enough to fix it. The problem is, I haven't yet found
another alternative that's any better. But for me it's becoming harder
and harder to justify sticking with Fedora.

Tet

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Patrick O'Callaghan-2
On Mon, 2015-05-11 at 16:33 +0100, Tethys wrote:

> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Not to be snarky, but if upgrading terrifies you then perhaps Fedora is
> > not the right distro for your needs. Regular updating is part of the
> > Fedora mindset. The system is designed to be updated at least once a
> > year.
>
> The problem is that newer versions tend to break everything, which
> makes for a sucky end user experience. I've been doing this since Red
> Hat 3.0.3 and up, so it's not as if this is all new to me. While there
> has been the odd release with problems over the years, it's largely
> been a trouble free existence. But that has definitely changed in the
> last few years. I'm wary of upgrading now, because too much breaks,
> and no one cares enough to fix it.

As I said, that is definitely not my experience. Upgrades rarely break
anything major and problems with new releases tend to get fixed quickly.

poc

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Re: Biting the bullet?

jd1008
In reply to this post by M. Fioretti-2


On 05/11/2015 12:45 AM, M. Fioretti wrote:

> On 2015-05-11 06:08, Rolf Turner wrote:
>> I have finally reached a stage where I may have to bite the bullet,
>> grasp the nettle, screw my courage to the sticking place .... and
>> upgrade my Fedora version.
>> I am currently running Fedora 17.  Which is of course antediluvian.
>
> Hi Rolf, and all. Your email really begs a general question:
>
> WHY upgrade, in a situation like yours? Does it really make sense?
>
> Why not backup everything,
> then completely ERASE the old installation, installing over it
> the current version from SCRATCH, then configure it to work as you need?
>
> Seriously. Wouldn't it be a much more reliable path, and consume much
> less
> time in the end?
>
> I'm interested in everybody's thoughts on this, not just Rolf's.
>
> Thanks,
> Marco
>
> http://mfioretti.com
Well, for one thing, installing from scratch requires possibly a large
number of config files, which would require remembering which ones
they are, search for them in the backup and overwrite the newly installed
config files, or worse: merge them into the new config files, or go through
a painful edit to see what setting from the old make sense in the new,
since not all settings in the old would make sense in the new.

Just my $.02's worth.
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Re: Biting the bullet?

Ralf Corsepius
In reply to this post by Patrick O'Callaghan-2
On 05/11/2015 06:00 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

> On Mon, 2015-05-11 at 16:33 +0100, Tethys wrote:
>> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Not to be snarky, but if upgrading terrifies you then perhaps Fedora is
>>> not the right distro for your needs. Regular updating is part of the
>>> Fedora mindset. The system is designed to be updated at least once a
>>> year.
>>
>> The problem is that newer versions tend to break everything, which
>> makes for a sucky end user experience. I've been doing this since Red
>> Hat 3.0.3 and up, so it's not as if this is all new to me.
Well, I guess you are aware that RHL/RHEL never supported upgrading? In
Fedora, upgrading is supposed to work.

>> While there
>> has been the odd release with problems over the years, it's largely
>> been a trouble free existence. But that has definitely changed in the
>> last few years. I'm wary of upgrading now, because too much breaks,
>> and no one cares enough to fix it.
 >
> As I said, that is definitely not my experience.
I am only aware about very few such occasions in recent years.

The only major incident I am aware about was UsrMov which occasinally
had caused major damage on upgrades. Later on there had been minor
incidents related to systemd and issues related to Gnome3 on low end HW.

Esp. upgrading 19->20 and 20->21 had been pretty smooth.

With the upcoming fc22, I am expecting dnf to be the #1 epicentre of
future troubles.

> Upgrades rarely break
> anything major and problems with new releases tend to get fixed quickly.
Exactly. I share this experience.

Ralf

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Re: Biting the bullet?

Tethys
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:53 PM, Ralf Corsepius <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> The problem is that newer versions tend to break everything, which
>>> makes for a sucky end user experience. I've been doing this since Red
>>> Hat 3.0.3 and up, so it's not as if this is all new to me.
>
> Well, I guess you are aware that RHL/RHEL never supported upgrading? In
> Fedora, upgrading is supposed to work.

It's not the upgrading process that's the problem. It's that the newer
software tends to be broken in anything but the default configuration.
I upgraded my girlfriend's desktop to F21 and it's literally unusable
now. She has to use her laptop instead (which is also barely usable
due to unwanted UI changes forced onto end users). Modern Linux is
becoming like Apple - "we know what's best for you, and if you don't
like that, you're wrong".

Tet

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Re: Biting the bullet?

stan
In reply to this post by Roger
On Mon, 11 May 2015 17:13:21 +1000
Roger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I generally do not upgrade but install new.
> I run 2 partitions on my hd, one has the previous version and the
> other the new install.
> I then install latest versions of the apps I need then copy my
> working files over to  the new install.
> This way I have the backup for a few months, then overwrite that with
> the next fresh install.

This is the way to go.  Takes all the stress out of the new install.
New install doesn't work? Fall back to the previous working version
until the new version can be fixed.  No loss of access to the web or
email, so getting help is easier, and fixing quicker.

What I'd really like to see is a morph of anaconda that was started as
an executable from a running version of Fedora, pointed at the new boot
and root partitions, and cloned the currently running version as
closely as possible, while the current version was running.  No
downtime to upgrade.  I don't think it is possible with current
computing technology to do this well, as it would require a
sophisticated expert system. But surely it should be possible to format
the partitions, download and install the base system, then install all
packages that are on the current version and available, to the new
version.  It could spit out a list of packages that it couldn't
update.  Then all that is left to do for the user is customization, a
series of steps that each person would keep track of for themselves.
Not painless, but fairly easy.

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