2 mice: left & right handed

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2 mice: left & right handed

Andrea-110
Hi,

running F25 GNOME on Wayland and have 2 mice.
One on the left and one on the right of the keyboard.

I would like to set the left as left handed and the right as right handed.

In GNOME settings I cannot change it per mouse, rather for all of the at the same time.

I read that this is a libinput matter, but I cannot find how to do it.

Any suggestions?

Andrea
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Tom Horsley-5
On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 19:28:03 +0100
andrea wrote:

> Any suggestions?

As near as I can tell Wayland was foisted off on everyone
without providing most of the user level control you
formerly had with X11, so step one is probably to stop
using Wayland.

Then you'll probably be able to use the xinput command
line tool to set different mice differently (if you can
identify which mouse is which).

There is some chance that xinput might work even with
Wayland, so you could give that a try and see if something
like "xinput list" will show two mice, if not you need
to stop using wayland or wait 10 years till some
programmer who works on wayland needs the same feature,
then it will suddenly become high priority.
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Samuel Sieb
In reply to this post by Andrea-110
On 06/06/2017 11:28 AM, andrea wrote:
> running F25 GNOME on Wayland and have 2 mice.
> One on the left and one on the right of the keyboard.
>
> I would like to set the left as left handed and the right as right handed.
>
> In GNOME settings I cannot change it per mouse, rather for all of the at
> the same time.
>
That is a rather unusual use case.  I've never seen a configuration tool
that could handle that.

> I read that this is a libinput matter, but I cannot find how to do it.
>
For Wayland (and possible X, depending on configuration), libinput
handles the input devices.  On Wayland, the only way to change that
configuration is to use the desktop provided tools or write your own.  I
suspect it would be a very simple program with very few lines if you
went that way.  If you switch back to X, you can use xinput to change it
for the session or an xorg.conf.d snippet to change it always.  It might
be possible to use a udev config to switch it for both Wayland and Xorg,
but I don't know for sure.
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Matthew Miller-2
In reply to this post by Tom Horsley-5
On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 02:44:07PM -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
> As near as I can tell Wayland was foisted off on everyone
> without providing most of the user level control you

Tom, this attitude  like "foisted off" and similar (from other recent
messages) really isn't welcome on this list. Please review the Code of
Conduct:

  https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct

Wayland isn't perfect, but it's worked on by actual human beings, and
Fedora as a project made a decision to help get that work in front of
other human beings so that it can be improved.


--
Matthew Miller
<[hidden email]>
Fedora Project Leader
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Joe Zeff-2
On 06/06/2017 12:20 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 02:44:07PM -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
>> As near as I can tell Wayland was foisted off on everyone
>> without providing most of the user level control you
> Tom, this attitude  like "foisted off" and similar (from other recent
> messages) really isn't welcome on this list.

It's the same attitude I've seen here lo, these many years, about both
systemd and SELinux, and for the most part, nobody objects.  Is there a
rule now, for this list, about expressing opinions?
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

stan
In reply to this post by Andrea-110
On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 19:28:03 +0100
andrea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> running F25 GNOME on Wayland and have 2 mice.
> One on the left and one on the right of the keyboard.
>
> I would like to set the left as left handed and the right as right
> handed.

I can't answer your question, but I also use two input devices, one on
the left and one on the right.  And rather than always worry that an
update was going to mess up my configuration, I just learned to use a
mouse with my left hand in mirror fashion.  That is, the ring finger
does button 1, and the pointer finger does button 3.  It took a week or
so, but now I don't even think about it.  My left hand had no muscle
memory like my right hand, so it was just a matter of learning as if
that was the right way.

This also means that I can use someone's right hand mouse at his / her
computer with my left hand if I want, if we are working together on
something.
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Samuel Sieb
In reply to this post by Joe Zeff-2
On 06/06/2017 12:58 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

> On 06/06/2017 12:20 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 02:44:07PM -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
>>> As near as I can tell Wayland was foisted off on everyone
>>> without providing most of the user level control you
>> Tom, this attitude  like "foisted off" and similar (from other recent
>> messages) really isn't welcome on this list.
>
> It's the same attitude I've seen here lo, these many years, about both
> systemd and SELinux, and for the most part, nobody objects.  Is there a
> rule now, for this list, about expressing opinions?

People do object.  Sometimes if it's just a one-off comment, it is just
ignored or "it's just him again".  But it really does make the
discussion unpleasant.  If you don't have a helpful comment, then just
don't comment.  If you can provide something helpful, then do so, but
without the negative put-downs.  Maybe you don't like the particular
software under discussion, but many people do.  And in the case of
Wayland, pulseaudio, systemd, etc., enough people liked it that they
switched the distribution over to using it.

(Note that "you" here is a general term, not referring to Joe.)
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Joe Zeff-2
On 06/06/2017 01:04 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> If you don't have a helpful comment, then just don't comment.

That's my attitude as well.  However, not everybody follows that
practice and on the whole the list just regards it as blowing off steam
and ignores it.  What I don't understand is, why is Wayland immune to
that kind of comment?
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Samuel Sieb
On 06/06/2017 01:19 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 06/06/2017 01:04 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
>> If you don't have a helpful comment, then just don't comment.
>
> That's my attitude as well.  However, not everybody follows that
> practice and on the whole the list just regards it as blowing off steam
> and ignores it.  What I don't understand is, why is Wayland immune to
> that kind of comment?

I can't speak for Matthew, but it's likely that it was a thread he
happened to be reading and so he noticed it.  I really doubt that it's
specific to Wayland and I have seen similar notices on other topics as
well, although those might have been on the devel list.
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Doug
In reply to this post by stan

On 06/06/2017 03:01 PM, stan wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 19:28:03 +0100
> andrea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> running F25 GNOME on Wayland and have 2 mice.
>> One on the left and one on the right of the keyboard.
>>
>> I would like to set the left as left handed and the right as right
>> handed.
> I can't answer your question, but I also use two input devices, one on
> the left and one on the right.  And rather than always worry that an
> update was going to mess up my configuration, I just learned to use a
> mouse with my left hand in mirror fashion.  That is, the ring finger
> does button 1, and the pointer finger does button 3.  It took a week or
> so, but now I don't even think about it.  My left hand had no muscle
> memory like my right hand, so it was just a matter of learning as if
> that was the right way.
>
> This also means that I can use someone's right hand mouse at his / her
> computer with my left hand if I want, if we are working together on
> something.
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list -- [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [hidden email]
One other idea: The mouse buttons are switches, of course.
If you can get at the switch connections, you could cross-wire
them. No software modifications at all.

--doug
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Rick Stevens-4
On 06/06/2017 03:11 PM, Doug wrote:

>
> On 06/06/2017 03:01 PM, stan wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 19:28:03 +0100
>> andrea <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> running F25 GNOME on Wayland and have 2 mice.
>>> One on the left and one on the right of the keyboard.
>>>
>>> I would like to set the left as left handed and the right as right
>>> handed.
>> I can't answer your question, but I also use two input devices, one on
>> the left and one on the right.  And rather than always worry that an
>> update was going to mess up my configuration, I just learned to use a
>> mouse with my left hand in mirror fashion.  That is, the ring finger
>> does button 1, and the pointer finger does button 3.  It took a week or
>> so, but now I don't even think about it.  My left hand had no muscle
>> memory like my right hand, so it was just a matter of learning as if
>> that was the right way.
>>
>> This also means that I can use someone's right hand mouse at his / her
>> computer with my left hand if I want, if we are working together on
>> something.
> One other idea: The mouse buttons are switches, of course.
> If you can get at the switch connections, you could cross-wire
> them. No software modifications at all.

Wait, isn't that the same philosophy that IBM had for their floppy
drives where they couldn't be bothered to put the correct drive select
jumpers in, wired them all up so drive select 1 was active and required
you to split and put a weird twist in the ribbon cable for the first
drive? Have we learned nothing in the 40+ years since?

Aw, what the hell? Dig out your soldering irons and jewelers'
screwdrivers! I'm in!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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-   Let us think the unthinkable. Let us do the undoable. Let us     -
-   prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may  -
-                      not eff it up after all.                      -
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

jdow
On 2017-06-06 15:20, Rick Stevens wrote:

> Wait, isn't that the same philosophy that IBM had for their floppy
> drives where they couldn't be bothered to put the correct drive select
> jumpers in, wired them all up so drive select 1 was active and required
> you to split and put a weird twist in the ribbon cable for the first
> drive? Have we learned nothing in the 40+ years since?
>
> Aw, what the hell? Dig out your soldering irons and jewelers'
> screwdrivers! I'm in!

Off hand I suspect it beats whining about it until it's "fixed".

{^_-}
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Doug
Thanx, JoAnne! --doug

On 06/06/2017 05:24 PM, jdow wrote:

> On 2017-06-06 15:20, Rick Stevens wrote:
>
>> Wait, isn't that the same philosophy that IBM had for their floppy
>> drives where they couldn't be bothered to put the correct drive select
>> jumpers in, wired them all up so drive select 1 was active and required
>> you to split and put a weird twist in the ribbon cable for the first
>> drive? Have we learned nothing in the 40+ years since?
>>
>> Aw, what the hell? Dig out your soldering irons and jewelers'
>> screwdrivers! I'm in!
>
> Off hand I suspect it beats whining about it until it's "fixed".
>
> {^_-}
> _______________________________________________
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Matthew Miller-2
In reply to this post by Samuel Sieb
On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 02:25:33PM -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> >That's my attitude as well.  However, not everybody follows that
> >practice and on the whole the list just regards it as blowing off
> >steam and ignores it.  What I don't understand is, why is Wayland
> >immune to that kind of comment?
> I can't speak for Matthew, but it's likely that it was a thread he
> happened to be reading and so he noticed it.  I really doubt that
> it's specific to Wayland and I have seen similar notices on other
> topics as well, although those might have been on the devel list.

Yes, this. :)

It is not at all specific to Wayland.

--
Matthew Miller
<[hidden email]>
Fedora Project Leader
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Tim-163
In reply to this post by Andrea-110
Allegedly, on or about 06 June 2017, andrea sent:
> One on the left and one on the right of the keyboard.
>
> I would like to set the left as left handed and the right as right
> handed.

I dare say that it's probably easier to use a mouse that's designed to
be left-handed (i.e. one that's wired up that way).  You'll never have
to specially configure a computer to suit it.  And it'd be more
comfortable in your hand, unless it was symmetrical to start with (the
mouse, not your hand).

--
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(always current details of the computer that I'm writing this email on)

Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is
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posted to the mailing list.

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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Andrea-110
In reply to this post by Samuel Sieb
On 06/06/17 20:17, Samuel Sieb wrote:

> On 06/06/2017 11:28 AM, andrea wrote:
>> running F25 GNOME on Wayland and have 2 mice.
>> One on the left and one on the right of the keyboard.
>>
>> I would like to set the left as left handed and the right as right handed.
>>
>> In GNOME settings I cannot change it per mouse, rather for all of the at the same time.
>>
> That is a rather unusual use case.  I've never seen a configuration tool that could handle that.
>
>> I read that this is a libinput matter, but I cannot find how to do it.
>>
> For Wayland (and possible X, depending on configuration), libinput handles the input devices.  On
> Wayland, the only way to change that configuration is to use the desktop provided tools or write
> your own.  I suspect it would be a very simple program with very few lines if you went that way.  If
> you switch back to X, you can use xinput to change it for the session or an xorg.conf.d snippet to
> change it always.  It might be possible to use a udev config to switch it for both Wayland and Xorg,
> but I don't know for sure.

This is what xinput shows, rather uninformative and even with --long I have no way to link any of
them to something I recognize (e.g. no brand name etc.)

andrea@localhost:~$ xinput --list
⎡ Virtual core pointer                     id=2 [master pointer  (3)]
⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer               id=4 [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ xwayland-pointer:13                     id=6 [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ xwayland-relative-pointer:13             id=7 [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎣ Virtual core keyboard                   id=3 [master keyboard (2)]
     ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard             id=5 [slave  keyboard (3)]
     ↳ xwayland-keyboard:13                     id=8 [slave  keyboard (3)]

tried xinput get-button-map and the ones that show something show all an unaltered map

andrea@localhost:~$ xinput get-button-map 4
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

even if I currently have left-handed mouse, so clearly GNOME is not using this method to swap them all.

Does anybody know how GNOME handles it?

I find so unnatural to use a left handed mouse with the right and the other way round.

I could write a uinput handler and present a new virtual device where I swap button clicks and pass
everything else unaltered, but there must be already one out there.

Andrea
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Re: 2 mice: left & right handed

Tom Horsley-5
On Wed, 7 Jun 2017 19:52:51 +0100
andrea wrote:

> andrea@localhost:~$ xinput --list
> ⎡ Virtual core pointer                     id=2 [master pointer  (3)]
> ⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer               id=4 [slave  pointer  (2)]
> ⎜   ↳ xwayland-pointer:13                     id=6 [slave  pointer  (2)]
> ⎜   ↳ xwayland-relative-pointer:13             id=7 [slave  pointer  (2)]
> ⎣ Virtual core keyboard                   id=3 [master keyboard (2)]
>      ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard             id=5 [slave  keyboard (3)]
>      ↳ xwayland-keyboard:13                     id=8 [slave  keyboard (3)]
>
> tried xinput get-button-map and the ones that show something show all an unaltered map
>
> andrea@localhost:~$ xinput get-button-map 4
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

id 4 is the virtual pointer for the XTEST extension and isn't a
actual mouse. Try id 6 instead of 4. I suspect that represents
the real mice which wayland has mushed together into a single
mouse. Here's what I get when I plug in my 2nd mouse while not
using wayland:

zooty> xinput --list
⎡ Virtual core pointer                          id=2    [master pointer  (3)]
⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer                id=4    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ Kensington      Kensington Expert Mouse   id=8    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ Logitech Logitech Illuminated Keyboard    id=10   [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ Kensington      Kensington Expert Mouse   id=13   [slave  pointer  (2)]

I do see two real mice show up, id 8 and id 13. (I have no idea what
part of my keyboard it thinks is a pointer, so ignore that :-).

Looks like you'll have to not use wayland if you want to remap
buttons in just one mouse. (Unless there is some super secret
way to burrow under the layers xinput can see).

The challenge might be in determining the ID numbers to use since
they'll probably vary at random, especially if you plug and unplug
the mice.
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